How important are...

Discuss internal affairs of pedals, guitars, amps and components etc...
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How important are...

Postby DreamTheaterRules » Fri May 08, 2009 11:43 pm

Cap and resistor types, when building pedals?

I'm not trying to "steal mojo" here, but there are few opinions I value more than Dave and Ronni. I have loved every Barber pedal I've tried. It's no secret that I'm into DIY, but in DIY I am really more into the things you can't buy commercially. I'm not a "cloner" although I have to admit as much as I love the LTDs, I might build an LTD Silver clone that Dave GENEROUSLY gave info on to the DIY community.

I know that in higher voltage circuits, cap and resistor choices can be a big influence on tone. So I'm asking more in the perspective of pedals. Some higher end builders, whose pedals sound great, seem to use "greenies" for caps and regular metal film or carbon film resistors. Their pedals sound great. Many of the really boutique builders claim to to have tried different parts for years before deciding on a particular part. So, are values more important? Or are the exact cap and resistor TYPES chosen just as important?

I have boards for mosfet boosts, jfet boosts, etc., and higher gain builds like BSIAB II and Dr. Boogie. If I build them all with higher end parts like Wima caps and metal film resistors, will they sound better? Are carbon film resistors smoother than metal film? Is there mojo in carbon comp resistors in these lower voltage circuits, like there IS in certain places in a tube amp? Will teflon wire help with male pattern baldness?

Ok, the last one was a joke, but how about the rest?
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Re: How important are...

Postby David Barber » Sat May 09, 2009 1:30 am

DreamTheaterRules wrote: Some higher end builders...

Many of the really boutique builders claim


I'll trade ya info!

What is a "higher end builder", and a "really boutique builder"? :D
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Re: How important are...

Postby mjcyates » Sat May 09, 2009 7:17 pm

You are a "really boutique builder" when you take a common circuit, change a few components, call it your own, give it a new name, charge way more for it than it is worth, and then make your customers wait at least a year to get one! :o
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Re: How important are...

Postby DreamTheaterRules » Sun May 10, 2009 12:25 am

;) Dave, you are a "higher end" builder too me. You build things that sound great, but you don't use smoke and mirrors to charge ridiculous prices for that. Many of the super boutique guys DO use lots of hype etc., to charge really high prices.

That said, I've modded stereo amps during my audiophile days. I've modded guitar amps and pedals recently. I know that in the home stereo (higher end stuff) even one cap swap of a different type OF the same value, can be heard. I know that in tube amps this is also true in many cases (depending on where the cap it in the circuit, etc.).

The reason I ask this question hear is, there are LOTS of guys who build, and tweak, and say "in lower voltage circuits like pedals, the TYPE of the caps and resistors is not going to make an audible difference." Many guys who sell lots of pedals that were very highly rated use "greenies." But some claim that carbon films are smoother than metal films in resistors, and some claim that box caps are cleaner than generic films, and some claim that carbon films have mojo, when the specs say the "mojo" they add is only ave higher voltages where they add 2nd harmonic distortion"

I observe what you use in your pedals. I build pedals for myself, which obviously does not stop me from buying commercially available ones since I own most of the Barber pedals. I'm really asking because in my builds, I want to know if it makes a difference. If I build a BSIAB II, should I replace all the caps with box film Wimas or AVX? And all the resistors with metal film or carbon films? Are box caps used because they are easier and look neater, or do they sound better?
PRS 25th Anniversary Custom 22 LTD Semi Hollow, new PRS Custom24. PRS Custom 22, EBMM JP12, 50th Anniversary Am/Dlx Strat, Peavey Wolfgang, Ibanez JS 1000 + 79 Artist, Carvin Bolt T (Gibson, Taylor Acoustics)
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Re: How important are...

Postby David Barber » Sun May 10, 2009 1:23 am

DreamTheaterRules wrote:;) Dave, you are a "higher end" builder too me. You build things that sound great, but you don't use smoke and mirrors to charge ridiculous prices for that. Many of the super boutique guys DO use lots of hype etc., to charge really high prices.

That said, I've modded stereo amps during my audiophile days. I've modded guitar amps and pedals recently. I know that in the home stereo (higher end stuff) even one cap swap of a different type OF the same value, can be heard. I know that in tube amps this is also true in many cases (depending on where the cap it in the circuit, etc.).

The reason I ask this question hear is, there are LOTS of guys who build, and tweak, and say "in lower voltage circuits like pedals, the TYPE of the caps and resistors is not going to make an audible difference." Many guys who sell lots of pedals that were very highly rated use "greenies." But some claim that carbon films are smoother than metal films in resistors, and some claim that box caps are cleaner than generic films, and some claim that carbon films have mojo, when the specs say the "mojo" they add is only ave higher voltages where they add 2nd harmonic distortion"

I observe what you use in your pedals. I build pedals for myself, which obviously does not stop me from buying commercially available ones since I own most of the Barber pedals. I'm really asking because in my builds, I want to know if it makes a difference. If I build a BSIAB II, should I replace all the caps with box film Wimas or AVX? And all the resistors with metal film or carbon films? Are box caps used because they are easier and look neater, or do they sound better?


I choose parts based on sound, size, availability, price, ease of implementation, longevity, marketability, customer demand, RoHS, standards, vintage vibe...etc...

In some circuits metals film resistors offer better noise performance that can be judged by ear, in some circuits a carbon film is desirable for it;s slightly more neutral sonics (compared to standard metal film). I like the Yellow AVM through hole caps (now off the market), they sound very good and are easy to read when building (keeps mistakes low). Green Xicon films are mainly used in the Tone Press, I like them for that circuit, and here and there in OD pedals. I don't think using 600v caps helps, but buyers are still intrigued (oh well). 1 watt resistors don't improve the sound in a 9-24 volt pedal, but the myths persist too. Fidelity is not an improvement in many guitar circuits (guitars can get embarrassed by fidelity), listen carefully make judgments based on your initial goals.

Tone is an art, it's an interpretation of what you want, and in my case what I think players want. If you are building for yourself, buy lots of parts of all quality levels, stop listening to forum banter about parts , including my banter, listen and make your own judgments, if you are building for yourself, then you are all that matters.

Audio does not know what the parts cost.
Audio does not know the wire is bent 90 degrees.
Audio does not know how old the part is.
Audio does not know how big the part is.
Audio can't read, so it can't participate in forums to find out about a part's mojo.
Audio can't see the paint job (but blue sounds better :D )
Audio does not know the part is 1000 larger than needed, instead of 10 time bigger than needed.
Audio does not know that stereophile components are supposed to make everything sound better.


Have fun! :D
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Re: How important are...

Postby DreamTheaterRules » Mon May 11, 2009 12:12 am

I truly appreciate your answer.

In some circuits metals film resistors offer better noise performance that can be judged by ear, in some circuits a carbon film is desirable for it;s slightly more neutral sonics (compared to standard metal film).


You said several very interesting things in that quote. "slightly more neutral sonics" and "standard metal film." Can you elaborate? How are carbon films more neutral, and have you found a "better" metal film?

Come on Dave, I can't buy thousands of parts to build a couple pedals. Help a brother out! :lol: I'm kidding, and I fully realize how loaded the questions are that I'm asking.
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Re: How important are...

Postby David Barber » Mon May 11, 2009 2:41 am

The carbon film resistors from Xicon sound a little less bright, and maybe "cleaner" than Xicon metal film types to my ears, although this is not as noticeable in all circuits, I am basing this opinion on a/b comparisons of like units. In a compression circuit the metal films work well for me, but carbons would not have been a crime either. If you want a few suggestions try;

Holco I always liked the ones I got in the early 90's
Roederstein tons of hi fi gear use these.
Vishay bulk foil are expensive, but considered to be exceptional.
Dale RN are well liked.

It really is very subjective, you can hear this stuff differently every day. I try not to go overboard. I can usually find something that works great for $.01 per R 1000 pcs. The circuit tuning and execution is way more important than finding a fancy resistor in hopes it will cure a bad sounding design. A good sounding circuit will still sound good with carbon film, metal film or carbon composite, but if you live for fractions of a percent of tonal improvement, then why not!? :)
PRS SE One, PRS SE EG, PRS McCarty rosewood neck, Anderson Hollow T, Anderson Hollow Classic, Hamer Artist, Fender Strats and Teles, All Barber Pedals, Barber Echelon, Barber Energy cab.
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Re: How important are...

Postby DreamTheaterRules » Mon May 11, 2009 11:48 am

I can't thank you enough for your answers. Kind of what I expected, but it's good to hear it from someone who obviously knows, and I did get a few things to try out and a few tips on parts to buy. MUCH THANKS!
PRS 25th Anniversary Custom 22 LTD Semi Hollow, new PRS Custom24. PRS Custom 22, EBMM JP12, 50th Anniversary Am/Dlx Strat, Peavey Wolfgang, Ibanez JS 1000 + 79 Artist, Carvin Bolt T (Gibson, Taylor Acoustics)
PRS 2 Channel Custom 50, PRS 2 Channel H, Mesa Boogie Mark V25, Mesa TA 15, Mesa Mini Rectifier, Barber LP, LTDv2, CTP, Fulltone pedals.
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Re: How important are...

Postby Ronni » Tue May 12, 2009 5:56 pm

Yeah if you want to spend all your money and drive yourself nuts picking over little stupid nuances in audio..

Open and studio... :lol: :? :x
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Re: How important are...

Postby DreamTheaterRules » Wed May 13, 2009 12:41 am

LMAO!!!!
PRS 25th Anniversary Custom 22 LTD Semi Hollow, new PRS Custom24. PRS Custom 22, EBMM JP12, 50th Anniversary Am/Dlx Strat, Peavey Wolfgang, Ibanez JS 1000 + 79 Artist, Carvin Bolt T (Gibson, Taylor Acoustics)
PRS 2 Channel Custom 50, PRS 2 Channel H, Mesa Boogie Mark V25, Mesa TA 15, Mesa Mini Rectifier, Barber LP, LTDv2, CTP, Fulltone pedals.
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